Episode Show Notes
Welcome to the Pilates Diaries Podcast.
In this episode, we’re joined by Cheryl Burgess and Ava Rodriguez.
Cheryl and Ava together are heading up the team that is bringing The Pilates Expo to life in Sydney in May this year so I can’t wait to hear all about what they’ve both got in store for us in this episode.
Cheryl is managing director of Pilates Reformers Australia, ToeSox Australia, and Semprose Pilates and Fitness Studio in Smeaton Grange and Gregory Hills in Sydneys’ southwest.
Ava is the owner and director of The Mobility Fitness Academy and delivers regular trainings to movement teachers from as far and wide as Southeast Asia, the Middle East, Europe, America, Canada, and here in Australia.
The mission of this podcast is to share the stories of the impact of Pilates to help you live and move with more joy, physical vitality, and renewed vigor.
Pilates was a somewhat unknown word until it started creeping into conversation somewhere around the 2000s- maybe even before then depending on who you asked and amongst which circles, and has largely remained and enigma for many reasons- one of which perhaps is that Pilates really has to be experienced to be understood.
There are now a wide range of Pilates styles available when you attend a Pilates class, perhaps borne from the variation of interpretations of how Pilates was originally taught by its founder, Joseph Pilates.
With The Pilates Diaries Podcast we’re inviting Pilates enthusiasts around the globe to share with us what they’ve noted down in their Pilates Diary. Our hope is that the Pilates Diaries Podcast goes some way to answering the question ” What is it that makes Pilates so special?”
We’ll take a privileged peek into the Pilates Diaries of our guests to gain a greater insight into the impact Pilates can have in all of our lives and contribute to the health and wellbeing of the community at large.
I welcome you along for the journey and welcome your comments and discussions through the links found on your favorite podcast platform. Enjoy.
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Episode Transcript
Bruce Hildebrand: In the spirit of respect, The Pilates Diaries Podcast acknowledges the people and Elders of the Bunurong people, members of the Kulin Nation, who have traditional connections and responsibilities for the land on which this podcast is produced.
Hi, I’m Bruce Hildebrand and this is The Pilates Diaries Podcast. The mission of this podcast is to share the stories of the impact of Pilates. We’re inviting Pilates enthusiasts to share with us the notes they’ve taken down in their Pilates journey as we seek out the answers to the intrigue Pilates has been able to ignite inside millions all over the world. Our hope is that The Pilates Diaries Podcast goes some way to answering the question ” What is it that makes Pilates so special?” Join me for privileged peek into this episode’s Pilates Diary.
In this episode, we’re joined by Cheryl Burgess and Ava Rodriguez.
Cheryl’s Pilates Diary begins with the backstory of her daughter’s scoliosis diagnosis more than 15 years ago, and the search for non-surgical methods to slow the curvature progression of the spine and to help with pain management for her daughter.
Not surprisingly, in hindsight, this led Cheryl straight to the world of Pilates, which immediately jelled with Cheryl being a passionate advocate for holistic wellbeing.
Cheryl then journeyed from being an enthusiastic Pilates client herself to then become an instructor, a studio owner, a teacher trainer, and now managing director of Pilates Reformers Australia. Enjoying success as a business leader, Cheryl then helped to launch ToeSox Australia, as well as leading the development of Semprose Pilates and Fitness Studio in Smeaton Grange and Gregory Hills in Sydneys’ southwest.
Cheryl’s studies in both the contemporary and classical realms of Pilates have enabled her to experience the many, many facets that Pilates has to offer and Cheryl remains committed to excellence and has an unquenchable thirst for knowledge and an assiduity to client empowerment which she sees as a crucial element for the growth and development of the Pilatus industry here in Australia. Cheryl believes that knowledge is power, and the more we learn, the more we grow as individuals, as educators, and as entrepreneurs.
Ava is the owner and director of The Mobility Fitness Academy and describes herself as the “go to gal” when conventional fitness methods fall short. Ava trained in Pilates with a second generation elder and has completed trainings in Functional Range Systems, Neurokinetic Therapy, and 3D Anatomy dissection. All this extensive anatomy training has Ava now able to share her expertise in simplifying complex concepts of anatomy and movement so that Pilates teachers can discover for themselves why movement barriers keep showing up with clients, and to help create breakthroughs for the “oh so common” difficult client blockages.
Bruce Hildebrand: Ava is on a mission to redefine what’s possible in movement and fitness, and to empower teachers internationally with the capabilities that the conventional fitness world often views as “impossible”. Through The Movement Fitness Academy, Ava delivers regular trainings to movement teachers from as far and wide as Southeast Asia, the Middle East, Europe, America, Canada, and here in Australia.
Cheryl and Ava together are heading up the team that is bringing the Pilates Expo to life in Sydney in May this year so I can’t wait to hear all about what they’ve both got in store for us in this episode.
It’s a pleasure to have you both on the Pilates Diaries podcast, Cheryl and Ava- welcome!
Ava Rodriguez: Thank you!
Cheryl Burgess: Thanks very much for having us
Bruce Hildebrand: I’m sure listeners are keen to hear about the Pilates Expo and what you’re working hard to create. What has inspired you both to bring The Expo to us all?
Cheryl Burgess: Yeah, well I met Ava back in September or so last year. I brought Ava to our studio to teach my instructors about The Mobility Academy that she has and through that relationship we’ve been talking lots about the Pilates industry and how as a community we want to be able to provide information that’s everybody can benefit from. And we were like, let’s get this off the ground and get it started.
Talking about how, there’s different types of Pilates and everything has its place and nothing’s better than the other, but also that people need to increase their education, and it’s a journey- Pilates isn’t just about one course – there’s a journey that needs to happen.
Bruce Hildebrand: And you’re looking to meet that need through the Expo, a broadcast of general information, Cheryl? Tell us more about what you’re wanting to focus on in the Expo and getting that message out.
Cheryl Burgess: There are workshops for Instructors business information for Studio owners, there is classes that Pilates enthusiasts are really keen to come and try out with different instructors to what they’re used to in their studio.
And to give a taste of all of the different facets that Pilates offers- there’s not just one kind- there are different modalities that people can experience. So we want them to come and experience it with us.
Bruce Hildebrand: And Ava, what was it that piqued your interest of your relationship with Cheryl and had you entertain this concept of no doubt a lot of hard work that is going to be a huge contribution to the industry?
Ava Rodriguez: Well, she had me at the first conversation because I always respect and value a individual that has respect for knowledge and understands that at the end of the day, your creativity, your impact, your value comes from how much knowledge you accumulate during one lifetime. I knew very quickly that we are on the same page we speak the same lingo and organically, we just came together. Cheryl and I was speaking the other day that we operate in a cottage industry and therefore there’s a lot of things that pop up. And that’s a great thing because our industry is not that mature yet. But there is also that when things pop up it becomes as a result sometimes a little bit cliquey and therefore there’s information that’s lost. And if information is lost that stagnates our growth. It means that our growth, it’s too slow. For us, what we aspire to do differently is that we don’t only bring people together, but we also go ” What is the value of education?” Because every time you learn, you can put it under the umbrella of education, but not all education is equal. There’s a huge difference between learning choreography versus learning about the human body and then putting it into context for teaching. So highlighting these bits and without any judgment that these are what’s available, but understand what education gives you what outcome because nothing is more disheartening than taking an education, assuming it’s going to take you to this goal, but it doesn’t.
Bruce Hildebrand: And you’ve experienced a bit of that yourself in terms of how many different directions you’ve had to go looking and exploring yourself Ava?
Ava Rodriguez: I think for me I was never here to be good at one repertoire or one modality. I’m here to be the best coach that I can be in the time that I can. For that, I need to try to at least understand the entirety of the human body. So, when you’re sitting and studying with an anatomy professor, that’s entirely different than when you are taking your qualifications for Pilates, or if that’s a weightlifting or whatever that may be.
Because the focus is slightly different, although anatomy comes into play, and this is probably why I jumped in different directions because I’m trying to have as much meat as I can accumulate as much knowledge as I can to bring it back into my teaching.
Bruce Hildebrand: It’s always a pleasure to speak with experienced practitioners to hear the richness of yourself and Cheryl as your experiences and your journeys and what brings you to the here and now of what you’re currently up to and the exciting things in the industry.
Ava Rodriguez: Thank you.
Bruce Hildebrand: We’re going to explore a little more about the Expo later in the episode. For now, I’m keen to hear both of your backstories that have brought you to the places that you both are with your Pilates and the impact that it’s had on both of your lives. Ava, we’ll start with you- can you tell me about life before Pilates- your pursuits, where did you see yourself heading at the time and what were some of the threads that ultimately you were going to always end up in some capacity involved in Pilates?
Ava Rodriguez: So, I come from a household where my father always said to me ” Education, education, education, education!” If you’re going to have an impact, if you want to gain respect, if you want to have a seat at any table, you better get educated because you are going to be the future of society. I say the same thing to my children and therefore you can make better decisions the more knowledge you have.
So I think I was probably always heading towards becoming a mentor because I love to understand things. If I cannot scientifically explain something to you, I would never bring it to my community because to me, that’s an indicator that I have not understood it well enough to be able to deconstruct it so that I can convey it to you in a manner that I can convey it to my 12 year old. Because in the end of the day, it’s not for me to come into a room and show you what I know- it’s about what you walk away with! Which I think is one of the challenges with a lot of the former generation that sometimes it’s intimidating. Now when I came to Pilates if I look at wellness as a big picture, I was always very particular in the sense that I care about my skincare, my food, my sleep, my quality of life, my fashion- so it all goes into it. Put your heart into what you do and care and respect yourself. Because in the end of the day, if you don’t have your health, you don’t have anything. And we know this just a slight injury messes with your head. So life before Pilates the only difference I just didn’t know a lot about the human body and movement- other than that all the attributes that contributes to the type of teacher or mentor you become was always there.
Bruce Hildebrand: Fantastic. I always remind my clients that Joseph Pilates’ first book wasn’t called ” Your Muscles” or “Your Stretching” or “Your This or Your That” it was called “Your Health”. And I love the way you summed it up so beautifully- it’s the whole picture, it’s the whole person that Pilates ideology, I think is, coming clearer and clearer to more people around the world with health benefits in a total sense.
Ava Rodriguez: Absolutely.
Cheryl Burgess: It’s interesting if you read the intro to Return to Life that he wrote, it’s all about go outside for walks make sure that you eat well, only eat what you need to eat because that’s what your body needs to fuel itself. And as you get older, it’s going to change. So even back then he was sprouting stuff like that.
Bruce Hildebrand: So true! And for you Cheryl, can you tell me about life before Pilates?
Cheryl Burgess: Life before Pilates was very similar to Ava, actually, because my parents were first migrants to Australia. It was all about holistic eating and making sure that you look after yourself. We were very sporty which came with a lot of injuries but it wasn’t until my daughter got scoliosis that we were able to stumble across Pilates. I never even knew it existed before that.
My husband did it because he had sport injuries, I did it as well after having our third child and pelvic floor issues. We saw the transformative powers that it was able to give our bodies. And then, we were just like “Wow, this is amazing!” Like Ava, I love educating- I’ll go to uni five times a year if I could, but I think my family would divorce me if I did! And it wasn’t until I got into the learning phase of it, becoming an instructor and the different types, it was just a world unto itself that I did not know existed. The more I learn about it the more I think how Joseph Pilates was a very intelligent man and way before his time!
Bruce Hildebrand: I always love to hear those stories of when you first arrived at Pilates, Cheryl. Your daughter was the catalyst to you attending your first Pilates class. Can you tell us that experience when you first attended that class and what your daughter was challenged by and the experience for you?
Cheryl Burgess: We couldn’t get her on the Reformer because she was way too small. she couldn’t reach the foot bar- so that was a challenge in and of itself with blocks and whatever. We went to a studio at Moorbank, which was based on Classical Pilates. We did a lot of mat work with her, and it was through that I was like “Oh,” a lot of the mat work exercises were warmups that I would do for our netball and touch football that I used to play.
And I was like “Oh, this is very similar to this.” And when you go into Joseph’s world and you see where it comes from you go “Okay, I get why it is what it is.” The apparatus- I’d never seen anything like that before. I’d been to many Physios in my time for sport and the results we were getting from the Pilates that we were doing was well and truly above what I was getting from doing Physio work so that was what hooked me in, y eah.
Bruce Hildebrand: And it was beneficial for your daughter’s scoliosis.
Cheryl Burgess: Definitely! We started when she was about eight- at that time, they wanted to do surgery straight away on her to fuse her spine. So we stuck with Pilates- it was able to prolong the progression of the curve. It wasn’t until she hit puberty at about 16- normally it’s about 13, 14 that they have to operate. she was able to last till then she did eventually have an operation, but her quality of life and her pain up until that point was much reduced because of the Pilates that she was doing.
We ended up buying Reformers so we could do it at home hence was born the equipment side of our business. It was like “Oh, let’s get a Reformer so all of us can do some of the exercises at home”- this is 12 years ago! To get one was a bit difficult or expensive! My husband was in printing at the time and they were importing inks and cleaning solutions and he said “Oh, let me see if I can import a Reformer”. Unfortunately he couldn’t bring in one so he brought in a few- used all of our savings to do so and was able to sell them all on eBay because that was the big thing at the time. And then he was like ” Maybe there’s a business in this!?” He’s a very creative man and that’s how we ended up with Align Pilates and now he works with them creating the equipment. That’s how we started into that industry- so it became multifaceted for us- a way of life that changed what we did!
Bruce Hildebrand: Such an impressive story- I love to hear it!
Ava Rodriguez: Amazing.
Bruce Hildebrand: And Ava, you’re citizen of the world- you’ve lived in many countries and travel around a lot. Can you tell us about your first foray into Pilates?
Ava Rodriguez: First point of contact for me was back in the day we had exercise videos. That’s me at home, in my living room slash kitchen doing Pilates on the mat and I think what fascinated me about Pilates was that mindfulness because I’ve always been mindful as a person so by default- speaking my lingo, wait a minute, let’s pay attention. Second is that precision of think about your toes and think about your ear and think about your breath- and obviously it’s overwhelming in the beginning because they give you 16 cues and then they go “Relax!”
How is this relaxing? But the fact that I had to be in the moment and I had to bring quality to the table is what attracted me immediately! I’m pretty good with knowing my tribe with people with the things that I want to do the people I want to be surrounded by the food that I want to eat- all of that spoke to me very much.
And then I started to pursue it as a career and I was trained by Alan Herdman and precision- it’s a thing! My graduates and my student often joke about me that I have eyes in the back of my head. He has eyes in the back of his head, back of his heels, back of his knees. He sees everything. And I love the fact that you were held accountable if you didn’t understand. It can be intimidating but I think because I come from a tough background I wasn’t intimidated. I just knew I have to bring my A-game! So from the get-go my foundation was really strong because I was fortunate enough to live in the right place geographically come across him and be trained in detail that by the time I had graduated I was confident enough to have my first client with a double hip replacement! Who has their first client with a double hip replacement! But like they said to me then in the studio if I didn’t have confidence in you I wouldn’t let you touch this woman. So yeah, that’s my intro to Pilates.
Bruce Hildebrand: Was it from a movement perspective, impossible to get your head around? Like you say- the overwhelm, you get asked 16, different things- did you ever think is it even possible to master this!?
Ava Rodriguez: My brain doesn’t understand ” No” and “Can’t” I’m one of those people who has a high level of dopamine, But what made it overwhelming- which I have then learned from and I feel shaped me to be the mentor that I am- is that I think a lot of the time in Pilates- not just when you’re new and you want to regurgitate all the cues that you have learned in terms of saying, I actually know what I’m doing, but there are too many cues that at times anatomically don’t make sense- because we want to convey a feeling, we want to give you an imagery to succeed, but that sometimes takes away from the purpose.
I remember one cue about a push up- ” No, you have to maintain your scapula in neutral!” What does that mean? You’re telling me anatomically if I extend my shoulders, my scapula is going to retract, also have a slight rotation! Those things were more overwhelming and confusing than the fact that I couldn’t wrap my head around getting them because I was determined I’m going to get this right. And I understood that it’s a practice and it takes time and that nothing happens overnight and I’m okay with that.
Bruce Hildebrand: In terms of The Expo, I’d imagine you’ve been inspired by hearing way too many conversations and receiving so many questions about that uncertainty of what Pilates is and where to get started and how to have it achieve what it’s meant to achieve and promoted to achieve. Is that what is a huge driver behind creating The Expo for you two?
Ava Rodriguez: 100 percent accurate! As you can see my background jumping from different parts to bring this movement together. I’m not the person who’s going to oppose anything that evolves! I’m married to a mathematician, he did quantum physics, he’s a scientist and he says ” okay, you either evolve or you’re going to get left behind! It’s not a matter of your feelings. It’s a matter of where things are heading! Do you want to be part of the game or are you going to park yourself outside?”
So I don’t oppose anything that ever evolves- I think it’s important that things evolve. I also don’t want anybody to ever think one modality is enough because that will be the same as saying ” You’re going to eat the same meal three times a day for the rest of your life and hope to check your nutrients- it’s not logical! For a comprehensive anything, you need different types of input! But there’s also that other side of the coin when people want to run before they learn to walk. And that devaluates what we’re trying to achieve! We operate in an industry that’s unregulated and there are so many enthusiasts that have goodwill but lack of education! And then there is that bit of smoke and mirror- you come in, you see a woman or a man, he’s ripped, he’s good in the gym, he’s good at Pilates- and you’re like ” He knows what he’s doing, or she knows what she’s doing!” but not necessarily so! Therefore, instead of actually improving and evolving, sometimes you’re regressing.
So I think to filter out the noise and understand these educations or these courses are available to you- we’re not saying which one is good, which one is not, but understand when you learn this, this is the outcome. When you learn that, this is the outcome. When you learn this, this is the outcome. Now choose wisely.
Bruce Hildebrand: And for you, Cheryl, a heavy involvement with teaching and educating for a long time and then heading up Pilates Reformers Australia- I’d imagine you would field countless calls of people who are curious to learn more, but perhaps have heard- like Ava just mentioned- lots of different stories, perhaps confused and perhaps contrasting stories of what is the best choice for them to make with their Pilates journey.
Cheryl Burgess: I can tell you countless stories about people that ring up wanting to buy equipment because they saw it on television or they think it will be good for them and we’ve seen people not knowing where to go and what to do and what would be best for them. It’s trying to be ethical and trying to realize exactly what is the core that people are after when they’re on their journey into Pilates? Are you doing it to make money? Are you doing it for your health? Are you doing it to better yourself? Or are you doing it because you want to help other people be better at living life, being able to get the best quality out of life.
We see a gamut of people, and I speak to a gamut of people and just recently I went and did a course teaching people about how to use our equipment, and the instructors were asking me questions about Pilates and who to study with and how can they get more information, and what would be best for them, and I said there’s so many answers to that question because it depends on who they are and where they are at their journey and where they want to go with that journey. That was one of the reasons why the Expo was born, because there are so many journeys that people can go on- there are so many pathways that people can go down. We’re only just touching the iceberg of what’s available, really. If I had a plethora of money I’d provide it all but we don’t so we’re just touching the top of the iceberg and hoping that it will allow many people’s questions to be answered at The Expo and if successful and people are encouraged by it then by all means we’ll go again next year and make it bigger and better and try to answer more of the questions that people may have.
Bruce Hildebrand: You mentioned earlier Ava about the cottage industry nature of Pilates how it currently operates. Is there a way based on your experience and insights into the industry how that can be somehow mitigated and more broad access to information being available to people? I presume The Expo’s a step in the right direction that you’re wanting to take.
Ava Rodriguez: Absolutely, I think it has to start with the fact that we have to talk to each other! Look at the former generation- there are institutions, establishments- you grow bigger and then there’s always this sense of competition. And then you’re going to say that I’m better than you- you’re better than me, and therefore information is lost! Being willing to listen and cooperate- and it’s not just in Pilates! How can you ever grow an industry in the right direction if everybody’s pulling their own, for whatever reason, then we’re going to stay scattered and we are going to lose the essence of what we want to achieve. At the end of the day, how many people do you meet and you go “Is education important?” Of course, we’re going to say yes. Are you always learning? Yes! For life! But if you ask them, what have you invested in when it comes to your learning and you actually look at that.
Really? That’s the definition of learning. You paid all this money and spent all this time and you didn’t achieve much. That’s sad, and that tells me there’s lack of information, it tells me that there’s lack of quality information because those people that are educated sometimes it goes, yeah, but these ones don’t understand so let’s forget about them and then do our own thing over here. You have to be inclusive, you have to understand that doesn’t matter if you’re representing a brand- we are not competitors! For the community we need to unite and at the back of that everybody’s business going to grow anyway. But when you come to the community, you’re trying to add value and if you’re not cooperative enough to add value, then what are you doing?
Bruce Hildebrand: Would it be your interpretation, Ava and Cheryl, that everyone would probably argue that they are providing value in their own way, but it’s just not in a collective sense?
Ava Rodriguez: I think so. I think that everybody has a good intention. It’s the same with the movement coach that took a qualification over a weekend or a month or two and then come in to the gym guns blazing and trying to teach you. She or he’s not doing it with the ill-will of hurting you- it’s the educators fault- that even gave you some qualification that makes you assume that you know things that you don’t. I see it all the time! Majority of my clientele are Pilates teachers- they come into my course and they go ” Oh, wow! Oh, okay!?” Because you are under the assumption that you know something that you don’t and that’s more dangerous than not knowing- because you don’t know what you don’t know but if you think that you know something that you don’t, then you’re in the deep end now- you better know how to swim!
Cheryl Burgess: Ava is correct. You don’t know what you don’t know. You go on your education journey and you are accumulating bits and bits and bits. I’ve done many courses over the years in different things- some of them have been useful and some of them have not. Even the ones that I think haven’t been, I might have been able to take something away from that and go if I was to do that course, I would have done it like this and so I look for that in someone else’s courses. So, no matter what course you do, I don’t think your money is ever wasted because you learn something from it, regardless of what it is. But as you go on your journey for education and as you mature as a person and as you deal with different experiences of clients- they’re the number one thing that will allow you to learn quickly- you then learn where you’ve got to go and what you’ve got to do and how you’re going to make yourself a better mentor, a better instructor, a better person that’s going to empower the clients that you’re dealing with.
Bruce Hildebrand: And that’s why I was very much looking forward to having you on the Pilates Diaries podcast, because getting more ears into Pilates and understanding more and more of the landscape of it- which I understand is very much the objective with the Pilates Expo- can only help us to get more and more curious about how far we want to delve into it to satisfy our needs and be of best service to the industry.
Cheryl Burgess: 100 percent
Bruce Hildebrand: Ava, in regard to the optimum pathway to take in the first instance, like you mentioned, it was perhaps serendipitous, that you crossed paths with Alan Herdman in the early days. Tell us about your first impressions of that and did it at the time feel like it was going to be a complete education for you or do we all just have to traverse this journey of gradually, as you say, Cheryl, adding more and more strings to our bow to become more and more complete with our teaching skillset?
Ava Rodriguez: So when you start your journey, educating yourself in anything in life, you’re assuming because you don’t know. It’s almost like applying for your first job. Like I’m applying for this job and it’s going to be this. And then you actually start the job and it turns out to be something different.
When I started my Pilates journey, I had done my due diligence and I was like, okay, he happens to live here, he knows what he’s doing- so I knew when it comes to the actual realm of Pilates, it will be pretty comprehensive- you can always add things, there’s no way around that- but very quickly as I finished. I knew that there is more to the human body and anatomy because I understood that when you learn a repertoire, you are going to learn anatomy that is related for you to understand how to teach this repertoire. That’s entirely different from anatomy if you go and study for an exercise physiologist, kinesiology, sports science, it’s different.
The anatomy needs to have a purpose because if I’m a surgeon I’m going to cut into a tissue- I better know what I’m cutting into so I don’t damage your nerve. This is why a surgeon doesn’t know anything about rehabilitation because he specializes on this. You don’t want him to know this you want him to master his craft. So I think maybe three, four years into my teaching I started doing some cadaver workshops then manual therapy and palplating tissue. And then all of a sudden I learned anatomy even differently, because now you have to palpate tissue, which means you need to understand where you’re on. Then that took me to 3D anatomy and so on and so forth, and we are here today, but I think that you always need to venture and learn things that add value to your first intention.
What is your intention? Why are you here? What do you want to achieve? And when you’re clear on that then the path and the choices are not that difficult to make. The other side of the coin is that I think a lot of people- because it’s a realm of enthusiasts- studying is intimidating. You came into fitness because you didn’t want to go to uni! That’s all good and fine, but that is a hurdle that we need to get over! How do we deliver the education to a demographic or to a population that sometimes feel intimidated in learning? Because you can have all the knowledge in the world and you can know more than most. But if people walk into your seminar and they go “What value did you bring?” Are they going to use it? My experience going in and out of very heavy seminar is that- first you’re overwhelmed with the theoretical bit that they give you because they want to give you a value- it’s all well intended. And then you have to put this puzzle together yourself. So you walk away, look at what I learned and then when that hype settles you go “So now what!?” Because if you learn anything of value you must have 10, 15, 20 questions- otherwise you didn’t learn much! Now you’re memorizing things- and that’s very important to understand- you need to have those questions, but you also want to find the answers to those questions relatively fast because when you are a professional you don’t have 80 percent of your time to sit and study. Therefore, it needs to be delivered to you in a manner that is applicable. If it’s not applicable then it’s a shiny new certification sitting on your wall, but you’re not utilizing it- so you went to waste!
Bruce Hildebrand: Such a perfect summary of how we can get caught on the hamster’s wheel unintentionally with needing to learn more stuff, needing to learn more exercises, needing to learn a new branch of something without really dropping into it and sitting with it and seeing how that transpires to delivering value to our customers.
Cheryl Burgess: Very true. I was always told you have to marinate! Once you’ve learnt something, it needs to marinate and then you can go from there.
Ava Rodriguez: Absolutely. You have to sit with it. You have to mature in it, like anything else.
Bruce Hildebrand: Would it be a fair comment to say, in your opinion, that the industry and the “busyness” of it, that the body of work isn’t given enough time to marinate these days?
Ava Rodriguez: One hundred percent!
Cheryl Burgess: Yes. I always disliked the phrase ” Fake it till you make it!” What does that even mean?
Ava Rodriguez: “Fake it until you make it” has the meaning of believing that you can achieve something even when your butterflies in your tummy tells you you should not take this risk, or learn this thing, or apply this- “dare to do it!” Not the same as pretend you know something, which we see a lot in the social media realm- I have 250,000 followers, so surely I’m a specialist at something! How did this happen?
My husband sent something very interesting to me yesterday There is a picture of a dog and then there is a picture of someone that drew this dog and the drawing is terrible- it looks like a 5 year old drawing- it’s cute, but it’s not good! But based on likes, he won the award and what does that tell you? People then attach their value, attach their knowledge, attach what they know to likes! We talk about this all the time in social media, right, mobility is the hottest thing in town- so everybody’s throwing it around like confetti and then for someone that actually knows what you should be doing, you’re looking at that and you go ” Wow, talk about misinformation being spread just because!” So yeah, “fake it ’til you make it” means that you have confidence to dare to do something, not that you pretend, something that you don’t!
Bruce Hildebrand: Sounds like you deliver that clarity a lot of the time in your trainings
I’m curious to ask both of you, were there some people that you met in your Pilates journey that had you really inspired and determined to forge the way and expand on what has now come to the early stages of the Pilates Expo? Were there people on your paths that were so committed to making sure that the Pilates message gets out there- was it teachers you had or was it things that took shape over time?
Ava Rodriguez: Alan, for me was a huge impact on my career. Rael Isacowitz the owner and creator of BASI Pilates. And a beautiful lady that worked alongside Alan- since she was probably in her late teens- called Diane Walker, who’s not famous in our industry, but she is a gem! This woman, I consider her one of my mentors- she probably will blush, because of the fact that the humility that this woman had along with her knowledge! She was never discouraging, she would always take her time to explain things to you even now in hindsight when you ask silly questions at times when you don’t know things- right, and you have to, that’s part of the game- and she would never make me feel like “Why would you ask that question?” She would actually take her time. And I think when you are learning something, one of the most important things is to have an environment where people are encouraging, where they take their time and they don’t make you feel like you are less worthy or less knowledgeable just because you don’t understand this specific thing.
Cheryl Burgess: I agree. I’m currently studying under Cynthia Lochard , and she is exactly like that- takes her time, willing to give her information, nothing is too small a question to ask and the information that she imparts and the aura that she has about her to allow you to delve into the world of Pilates and movement is incredible, it’s inspiring!
I’ve also had the privilege of being able to go to the Washington and deal with Mariska Breland- she’s the inventor of the Fuse Ladder, she has done some amazing stuff with Pilates, but also her ability to use the fuse ladder to help with her multiple sclerosis the way that she uses movement to help her community and her own body is incredible! Very generous with her time, very generous with her knowledge to help other people understand what she goes through every day but also how, for her, movement and Pilates can help – very inspiring!
Bruce Hildebrand: Let’s talk about the pathway that you each took that initially had you fall in love with Pilates, but then you came up against perhaps some roadblocks that were like ” This doesn’t seem to fit, and this doesn’t seem to gel with this thing that I’m in love with- what can I do to approach it differently?” Ultimately, I think you guys working super-hard to get the expo off the ground has you determined and driven to be able to make that happen? Can you tell us about some of those challenges that you hit at various points where you’re like, I’m going to bank this for the time being, but it doesn’t seem to gel with what I think might be possible with this entire body of work. Like the roadblock, casting back to your daughter- like I was looking for a certain type of help and I didn’t seem to be able to get it.
And for you Ava- I think the point earlier about your anatomical understanding being very contextual, but you wanted to know it in a more of a rounded sense.
Cheryl Burgess: Definitely when we were looking for my daughter- I was already into alternative methods of therapies. Back then when I grew up, things like a chiropractor or a osteopath were foreign growing up- my mum was always into stuff like natural health. Going to see a doctor was very rare in our household because, my mum had all the remedies to solve whatever that you needed. Scoliosis when we came up against it was something that couldn’t be solved with any of those modalities that I had been using throughout my life.
We had tried different types of braces, we’d tried different types of mechanical exterior things for her to help her. And some of them when I look back on them now, I think what were we thinking to try that? But you do it because you’re trying to help your child to be the best, that they can be.
So when we came across Pilates it was ” Oh, this is not so torturous or difficult.” It was difficult in terms of the exercises and how to perfect the exercises and trying to understand exactly what that exercise was for and how it was going to help her- that was the roadblock that came with that. But when we came to the equipment side of it the roadblock was “What can we get that’s quality and affordable for us, personally, to be able to use, and then if we’re having that struggle, then other people must also be having that struggle. What can we do to help people with this struggle?”
And that’s how we got into equipment- it was like what’s affordable, and what is quality that will stand the test of time. We did it for the home environment and then we branched into the commercial environment as well. Because again, it was what’s affordable and what’s quality that people can make a lot of money out of their business. Because these people are passionate about Pilates, they’re not business owners per se when we first started anyway. How can we help these people build their passion and support them along their journey?
And then, it’s all morphed into different things along the way, socks and looking after your equipment properly with wipes equipment that’s actually going to last a test of time and not break down so that your studio can run appropriately providing them with education and different realms of education, different types of education- so that’s been our journey, and each one of them has come with its own different roadblocks along the way. The PAA trying to get them to support us, the APMA they were also a roadblock- that we had to chisel our way through- to say ” we’re not here to stomp on your feet or stop anything from happening or hinder the industry- we want to be a part of it to help to spread the word that we’ve been experiencing!” They were the roadblocks that we’ve had to work our way through and get to where we’ve got to today.
I’m a big believer in when the time is right, it will come- ” Field of Dreams”- in that movie, if you build it, they will come. The time for this Expo was right. all of the blocks had been put into place and we were ready to go.
Bruce Hildebrand: Fantastic to hear. And for you, Ava?
Ava Rodriguez: I will say that I think the way education is delivered. I think where education fails is in the deployment. You can have all the best intentions in the world, but it’s in the deployment! Number one is maybe at some point- hopefully- if we get to come together more, if we are on the same page, when have more muscle and more hands on deck- we can actually get to a position where we don’t have microwave certifications handed out- that’s number one. That we have the understanding that now you are a Pilates instructor- because everybody has to start somewhere- you need to work for a few years but then it’s essential for you to learn these modules, these bits, and how those bits are delivered. Because there are lots of good education out there- it’s not that there isn’t- but most people, in my experience, don’t even know where to look, most people just want choreography. That’s one of the things that when they come to my seminars as well, they’re like, worrying about remembering everything that’s going to happen with every range. How are you going to remember anything in 5 hours? Even if it’s 10 hours, even if it’s 15 hours- how are you going to remember? This is why I am supporting you with a tutorial content that you can watch later after you’ve done your exam, because what you need to understand is this concept is the neurology is the science so that you know why you’re applying what.
When I’m not with you in the room and so and so walks in and they look a little bit different in this position, you’re not freaking out! That to me it’s a coach. I don’t care if you’re in a group setting- of course, it’s more challenging with 180 people on the floor- but how often do you go and teach 180 people on the floor?
I’m flying to India- yeah, that’s going to happen- but that’s different- this is a festival, this is a retreat, it’s entirely different- but you need to be able to understand how do you cater to the masses nice and fast and adapt! For that you need to understand the human body- there’s no choreography in the world that’s going to teach you that.
Cheryl Burgess: Pilates is not choreography, and it’s not a repertoire. It’s none of those things. When you read the books that Joseph wrote- it’s not about the repertoire and it’s not about the shape that the body is going to look like- it’s about understanding why you’re doing that particular exercise, what’s the benefit of it?
Ava Rodriguez: Like, how do you program something for someone? What is the outcome and how do you measure success? Surely you measure success through results! So if I have someone that comes to me and says, my neck is bothering me and we do a bunch of stuff and they feel better and they go and they come back the next week and tell me the same thing again- there are many variables involved, maybe in this week you’ve been, doing neck stands all week- I understand- but at some point you need to be able to measure- both visually and sensory- have you actually pushed beyond something? If you haven’t your strategy is wrong! Either that is your tools, your programming, your knowledge, whatever that is, you need to understand that so that you know how to fill in your gaps.
Bruce Hildebrand: That’s the scientist in you coming out there- I think it’s such a strong foundation to build on those scientific reasonings as to why the information you’re delivering Ava is so much able to have an impact and change the path for people when they’re looking for it.
Ava Rodriguez: Thankyou
Bruce Hildebrand: So tell us more about The Expo- when it’s happening, whereabouts, what size you’re going for- this is the first year of course, it’s exciting thing to get off the ground. I’m also keen to hear more about the vision that you have for where you want The Expo to go?
Cheryl Burgess: The Expo will be held in Sydney at the Novotel at Homebush on the 4th of May 10am-4pm with a cocktail event at the end from 4pm-6pm. The schedule is set out so that people can come along and experience not just doing one workshop here and one workshop there- we have Ava running in one room and she’s going to run the same workshop in each of the sessions so that everybody gets an opportunity to see her running her session.
Cynthia Lochard’s also coming- she’s representing the Classical Pilates realm. We have Elle Collins coming- she’s looking at the Group Reformer world. I’ve got Steph Neal from Pilates HQ- she’s going to be looking at the different types of apparatus that we have in Pilates- not just the Reformer.
Carla Mullins is coming to tackle the Wunda Chair. We’re tackling a bit of pre and postnatal with Fran. And then we’ve got some business talks for the studio owners- Ingrid Thompson’s coming to talk about ” go from Instructor to Studio owner” or multiple studios- what would that look like for you?
We have the Movement Perspective with Vicki and Chloe coming to talk about marketing for studios and how they can use that effectively in their film. I’m tackling the Pilates education talk, who to study with, when, why, how- and that’s going to be helped along by Sharon Simmons from the PAA- she’s going to collaborate with that because the PAA field a lot of questions about who people should study with and why they should study Pilates.
Finally, we’re going to round it out with Raphael Bender who’s going to talk about the difference between pain and injury. That’s our line up for the day- some food, fun, some exhibitors are going to be there for people to buy stuff from, pack your bags and take as much as you can home with you and come and enjoy the world of Pilates. And even if you’re thinking about it or haven’t really experienced it but want to experience it, then it’s the opportunity- it’s free, just come along and bring your beautiful selves and enjoy the day.
Bruce Hildebrand: You’ve got a jam packed day planned Such a broad range of expertise in the room and a range of different topics that you’ve decided to bring together exciting!
Cheryl Burgess: It is! We’re excited. A lot of work but it’s fun!
Bruce Hildebrand: And tell us how you recommend people navigate the day when they jump on the website www.ThePilatesExpo.com.au – they’ll be able to choose elements of the day that they are interested in- can they go to them all?
Cheryl Burgess: Yeah, basically look at the schedule- we’ve tried to keep many workshops the same so that people can jump from one to the other, but still get all of the value from all of the presenters. Tickets are free, just jump online on the website, through Instagram or Facebook at ThePilatesExpo.com.au
Bruce Hildebrand: Such a great opportunity for anyone keen perhaps just putting a toe in the water or even more experienced and seeing where you want to go with it next. Such a great education opportunity.
Ava Rodriguez: We hope so- that’s what we’re trying to achieve!
Bruce Hildebrand: And Ava, can you give us some insight to what provoked this conversation when you first met Cheryl that was the catalyst for you guys wanting to really take this and some insight in where you plan to go with it all going well.
Ava Rodriguez: We were having dinner and then as we were talking Cheryl said to me “You know I’ve thought about what if this thing would happen, but I’ve never done anything- but you know, it was a thought in my head. And I said to her “Why is it just a thought? Let’s do it!” You would never do anything if you just think about it. You got to just do it. And don’t think so much about the hurdles. Just do it. So we’re doing it!. Life is too short to just- and this is where you just have to have the confidence- to take the leap. Neither Cheryl or I are people who just say things just because we want to have something to say just to make noise. There is a thought behind it, there is a care behind it, there is experience behind it- we want to add value to our community because growth is based on cohesive, collective community. One man can never stand alone. Like I was saying about the children, democracy is a beautiful thing when the majority of the people is equally educated because otherwise we can see it in the world that when you have a right to vote and then you vote, that is not cohesive for the society, because you were just lacking knowledge, not because you come from a bad place.
We’re on the same page so we hope that this is what’s going to bring value and is our first time so we’re going to learn as we go as you always do! We want this to be a continuous thing and maybe with time, instead of once a year becomes twice a year and we do it on a smaller scale so that we have as much opportunity to grasp as many people and get them involved as we go along like a family.
Bruce Hildebrand: It’s certainly very inspiring and admirable the huge task you’ve taken upon yourself. We wish you well and if this Pilates Diaries podcast goes a little way to getting exposure for The Expo it’s certainly in line with sharing the stories of the impact of Pilates with you guys getting the most momentum you can with The Expo.
As always keen to get lots of listeners feedback on their experience of The Expo. I recommend it highly the places that Cheryl and Ava are coming from is incredibly authentic- you’re going to get top quality information and understanding and education of Pilates coming from these two wonderful ambassadors for the Pilates industry.
And Ava, you’ve been running courses for many years- I’m sure listeners would be keen to hear more about them as well as being part of The Expo, of course, can you tell us about the best way to contact you with all your training.
Ava Rodriguez: You can find me under the handle @movebeyond.withava on Instagram. There you can also sample, my posts, my voice, who I am, my community. You can always visit my website movebeyondwithava.com just drop me a DM on Instagram or an email and you can take part of the schedule and everybody just try free hip class so that you know what we’re talking about when we say mobility.
Bruce Hildebrand: And Cheryl, you and Adrian have been running Pilates Reformers Australia for a long time- what’s the best way for us to reach out?
Cheryl Burgess: PilatesReformersAustralia.com.au or on Instagram- Pilates Reformers Australia- you can find me personally on LinkedIn also @cherylburgess_ on Instagram
Bruce Hildebrand: It’s been a pleasure chatting with you and we look forward to chatting to you next time on the Pilates Diaries Podcast.
Ava Rodriguez: Thank you so much for having us.
Cheryl Burgess: Thanks very much.
Bruce Hildebrand: We hope you enjoyed this episode of The Pilates Diaries Podcast. Drop us a comment online at the links in the show notes, and be sure to subscribe and rate the podcast to keep updated with episode releases and hear more stories from our guests’ Pilates Diaries. This podcast is made possible by the following sponsors- keep an ear out for exclusive Pilates Diaries Podcast listener discount codes. Thanks for listening. The Pilates Diaries Podcast is a proud partner with TRIMIO. TRIMIO is a much needed space and time utilization booking system for the Pilates industry. With TRIMIO you can return your focus to delivering the highest value to your customers. No longer be lost to the encumbrances of inefficient interactions and experience a new level of working freedom with the power of technology automation doing what it should. Maximize your profitability by optimizing the utilization of your time and physical space with TRIMIO. Find out more at www.TRIMIO.app.
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