Episode Show Notes
Our guest in this episode is Zac Jones from Heal Yourself and Move
Zac comes from an incredibly rich movement background: a graduate of the Australian Ballet School, Soloist with the Queensland Ballet and the Expressions Dance Company. He’s a second degree black belt in Aikido, first degree black belt and teacher in Filipino Arnis, and continues to study Kung Fu and Russian Systema. Zac also holds a Masters of Fine Arts in Choreography from the Victorian College of the Arts. Zac was Strength Coach at the Australian Ballet School for five years and has studied body mindfulness and somatic practices, including Continuum, Idiokinetics, Skinner Release Body-mind Centering and Contact Improvisation. Drawing on his vast range of experiences, Zac founded Heal Yourself and Move in 2014 and now teachers into dance schools around the world, focusing on movement, intelligence, relaxation, and training the body to be the teacher. Zac welcome to the show.
[1:59] Zac talks about his introduction to Pilates around 1995 studying at the Australian Ballet Centre in Southbank, Melbourne, and training with Andrew Baxter, who was one of the early pioneers bringing Pilates to Australia. This was the beginning of understanding how to link body concepts to find technical breakthrough in a high-level skill pursuit,
[5:34] Zac recalls his first impressions of working with Andrew in a small group setting with some ballet demi-gods, and Pilates giving him a sense of alignment, engagement, and perfect tuning.
[11:14] When Zac receives a strong grounding through Paul Cini’s APMA focus on clinical application and the connection of anatomy and physiology. He also credits Wendy Smith (Studio 303) and Steph Glickman (Armature Pilates).
[16:12] Zac describes other influences on his teaching – the somatic approach, Franklin, Ideokinetics, Skinner Releasing, Body Mind Centring and Continuum, and Feldenkrais.
[17:01] Bruce asks how martial arts and Aikido added to the blend of influences.
[22:31] Zac describes his dislike of set programming and how it feels antithetical to his personal experience of Pilates. Joseph Pilates was a continual innovator.
[26:45] Zac gets excited with the ongoing process of working on solutions for people or himself and getting breakthroughs.
[27:51] Bruce questions Zac about more recent developments in his teaching and Zac talks about going online and back into the dance world.
[32:17] A big discovery for Zac has been finding out that change is possible instantaneously; in particular, release from tension.
[34:57] Zac looks to what he wants to do in the future and explains the importance of listening to intuition.
[36:12] Bruce asks how musical percussion influences Zac’s work.
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Episode Transcript
Bruce Hildebrand: In the spirit of respect, The Pilates Diaries Podcast acknowledges the people and elders of the Bunurong people, members of the Kulin Nation, who have traditional connections and responsibilities for the land on which this podcast is produced.
Hi, I’m Bruce Hildebrand and this is the Pilates Diaries Podcast.
The mission of this podcast is to share the stories of the impact of Pilates We’re inviting Pilates enthusiasts to share with us the notes they’ve taken down in their Pilates journey as we seek out the answers to the intrigue Pilates has been able to ignite inside millions all over the world. Our hope is that The Pilates Diaries podcast goes some way to answering the question " What is it that makes Pilates so special?" Join me for privileged peek into this episodes Pilates Diary.
In this episode, we’re joined by Zac Jones. Zac comes from an incredibly rich movement background: a graduate of the Australian Ballet School, Soloist with the Queensland Ballet and the Expressions Dance Company. He’s a second degree black belt in Aikido, first degree black belt and teacher in Filipino Arnis, and continues to study Kung Fu and Russian Systema. Zac also holds a Masters of Fine Arts in Choreography from the Victorian College of the Arts. Zac was Strength Coach at the Australian Ballet School for five years and has studied body mindfulness and somatic practices, including Continuum, Idiokinetics, Skinner Release Body-mind Centering and Contact Improvisation. Drawing on his vast range of experiences, Zac founded Heal Yourself and Move in 2014 and now teachers into dance schools around the world, focusing on movement, intelligence, relaxation, and training the body to be the teacher. Zac welcome to the show.
Zac Jones: Thanks Bruce- awesome to be here!
Bruce Hildebrand: Zac we’ll begin by taking a look back- can you tell me about life before Pilates? What were some of your pursuits? Where did you see yourself heading at the time? And in hindsight, what were some of the little threads that maybe led you to discover Pilates?
Zac Jones: Before I was doing Pilates, I’d done a lot of dance, I was studying ballet, I was studying contemporary dance. I guess one of the big threads for me pursuing Pilates was when I was training at the Australian Ballet School training with Andrew Baxter- that was my first real experience of it before then I’d heard of it and I didn’t know what it was, but then experiencing working with Andrew and he was one of the early pioneers bringing Pilates to Australia, I got really obsessed with it and I could really see the difference in the work that would happen in the full-time ballet training that I’d be able to develop so much refined strength that I’ll be able to use working with Andrew. And so I became really obsessed with it then.
That was the first thread of what I further on started to develop more, which was this concept of working out how you can link systems or link concepts from the body- say from Pilates into ballet, how to do it in such a way that you can find that technical breakthrough, especially when you’re training full time, especially a lot of dancers or athletes at that pointy end of where they’re wanting to get to professionally or make another step in their career, they have to have a skill improvement and you’ve got to do that safely- and you’ve got to do that in such a way that is repeatable- so Pilates is my first experience of that working with Andrew I left it for a long time when I was dancing professionally and then getting into martial arts- I didn’t think about it. But it’s always been there humming away- the idea of if you’re doing a high-level skill pursuit and in the moment of doing it- you’ve got your training drills and you’re constantly practicing or rehearsing it, but what can you do otherwise to help improve it? So that’s been a thread that I’ve continued ever since, but it started from doing ballet and then experiencing Pilates for that first time.
Bruce Hildebrand: And what year are we talking at this point? I know Andrew has been- as you mentioned- a pioneer of Pilates, certainly in Melbourne- if not all of Australia particularly with elite schools, like the Australian Ballet School- what year are we talking?
Zac Jones: I would say it 1995.
Bruce Hildebrand: And Zac can you tell us a story of when you first arrived at Pilates? What was the setting and what was the experience?
Zac Jones: It was the Aussie Ballet Centre in Southbank there’s a small studio upstairs where I ended up also coaching there many years later, which was quite funny but I remember going up there and downstairs it was a very structured environment and very awe-filled- you had the Australian Ballet Company elite ballet dancers all on the same level- so you’re seeing all these amazing dancers and everything happening- I remember going up and started doing Pilates and that was the first experience also of going "Oh, I here’s something I can do, here’s something that you can tangibly get onto that’s going to help me go towards those areas of improvement and towards some of those people that I’m really admiring." I remember you go up in the lift and it was a fairly unassuming space – that was the first time I’d even seen any of the equipment it’s like probably every instructor has that when someone sees Pilates for the first time and they mention what is this equipment!?- It looks like a torture chamber or something like that! That was my first experience going- what does all that for? I remember that was a big mystery and that continues through it- I remember that sense of you know about gym work, you know about these kinds of things, but Pilates- the equipment and the way it’s used and the specific instruction that was very new.
Bruce Hildebrand: And can you give us some first impressions of your initial teachers and some of the other people in the class, some of the things that we’re getting out of it, and even the perception of other people in your life around you when you first told them that you’d begun Pilates and what were some of their reactions?
Zac Jones: The initial response working with Andrew was there was a real attention to detail. I really enjoyed that and the ability to very much grab onto something and tangibly achieve it. also even that sense of training privately in a group of three or four that was a really a special experience because in a dance class you’re one of 20 you’re trying to get that edge, but you’re not getting that individual attention or even a smaller group attention which is I find vital to take that next step. So I found Andrew, he was very focused and because
I was
someone really interested as well, he gave a lot in that sense. So I really enjoyed that first relationship I would have been about, 15 or 16, but just that mentorship with someone a bit older with a lot of focus and also that encouragement because when you’re that age and you’re in quite a intense environment, encouragement is really vital I remember being really chuffed with that and being able to see that progress as well, as far as students around- you’d see these other legendary dancers I remember principal dancers at the time or former dancers that had been in the company, and being in awe you’re in a room with demi-gods, and I’d be doing my thing. I remember that environment, of you’re quietly working in the same space with someone who’s an absolute legend! As far as people saying "Oh you’re doing Pilates at the time there wasn’t a huge amount of knowledge about Pilates, so it wasn’t negative at all, but certainly the knowledge of Pilates wasn’t the same. I don’t think there were even a huge amount of other dances in my year doing it
Bruce Hildebrand: Can you share with us some of your earliest progress in Pilates the experience of it, when you first noticed that Pilates was starting to have an impact in your dance movements and in your body?
Zac Jones: One of the big ones was the classic core strength and control and finding what I was able to fine-tune, I remember really clearly being able to get that sense of alignment, engagement, and that sense of perfect tuning that you get where it’s quite strong, the resistance, but then you’re finding that you’re not forcing through it and you’re doing that because you’re integrating movement- I wasn’t necessarily thinking about that at the time, but you’re integrating it through your "Centre" and you’re feeling that coming out to your limbs and you’re able to do it and there’s a sense of work happening but it’s not over fatiguing and it’s that sense of refinement in the muscles. I think that was the big one- going back downstairs, doing classes it was more a slow burn in a way, but it’s that gradual thing going ok I’ve got something that I can rely on, and I know, those muscle groups or certain areas that I can actually start to bring together, whereas what can happen with a lot of high intensity training- especially when there’s a high level skill development, you’re trying to take the instructions and you’re trying to get it right, and you’re trying to get an aesthetic component at the same time- you’re trying to do it to music, and you’re trying to remember the steps you’re trying to do all these things and there’s so many variables happening and there’s all these other people around you and then the ability just to focus in on that one thing. That was really key to know that I can take that out. I can extrapolate it and work on it further, and then I can come back to it- back and forth- that was a big thing for me. It’s something to be able to really rely on and to be able to come back to something that you know, that you can find an activation or you can find a sense of something- I think that was a big thing.
Bruce Hildebrand: It’s such a beautiful description- I’ve always enjoyed listening to the way that you experience Pilates. Was there parts of the experience Zac at this point that you didn’t like, and you didn’t really want to accept or parts of Pilates that you found challenging in your pursuit of wanting to improve.
Zac Jones: Anything involving some of that full on ab work- I found that was a real challenge. I remember the initial times working with it, I remember the shock of the intensity of the work that was happening with that series of five and then into The Hundred. Whoa, what is this? That was an initial thing I didn’t really like, but at the same time, once you’d practice it and then there’s that sense of achievement when you’re able to get that endurance and then you’re able to get the refinements through it and then you’re able to go longer with it- then it becomes a refinement game and if I refine things and I work out how to do things with more skill, I’m actually increasing my strength because I’ve increased my skill and all these things that are applicable to dancing as well. You’re
realizing that
your gains aren’t a brute force thing- that was really interesting, I think sometimes it can be hard, and especially being a bit younger approaching things, knowing that it’s going to take a certain amount of time, you’re going through a sequence of things, you’re going to have to experience repetition and, you are wanting things to work and happen straight away- there was that frustration initially, to some extent, but at the same time, once again, once you’d accept that, it became quite meditative. Because you know it’s the same process each time- you come up against a challenge and you’re meeting it and you’re trying to get through it, and then you’ve got to find a refinement. With Pilates, I found there’s always a skilled solution to a problem, and so to know that it’s up to you to work it out, or work out with your teacher, because knowing that once you go into a situation where you think you’ve got to do something flat out, and this is something I’ve been really looking at lately a lot is the way you start something, the way you intend going into it is going to determine always that outcome.
So if something’s hard and you start hard, you’ll be exhausted instantly, but you could do the same thing with the same body, with the same apparent level of fitness, but you approach it with a different level of trying to work it out. You can have a completely different outcome and you’re not exhausting yourself. I think those initial challenges and working out how to overcome them that’s what Pilates did for me.
Bruce Hildebrand: You already mentioned Andrew Baxter, but who were some of the other people that you met along the way the initial training you did with the APMA that helped shape your Pilates experience?
Zac Jones: The training in Pilates that I did was with Paul Cini. He was a wonderful mentor. He’d been at the Australian Ballet School at the time I was working with Andrew Baxter, so that was a really interesting continuity. Learning from Paul was fantastic because at the time I’d been doing some dance, martial arts, and I wanted to find a way once again, to get through to other levels of skill. I was trying to find a way to do that and struggling because old injuries were coming up and I didn’t initially think of Pilates it was somewhere off in my memory. Then I somehow found out about this training and I approached Paul and he said come and do the course. That was really interesting to learn it from a very much a rehabilitative perspective. He was massively focused on the clinical applications to it. and really rigorous in making sure that your knowledge of anatomy, physiology was tied to what you’re going to be doing to particular injuries, particular populations, all those kinds of things to make sure that you were getting a really strong grounding in how to work with people, not to hurt them how to program classes, how to do all these things- it was pretty awesome comprehensive training.
Also Wendy Smith she does Kinesis at Victorian College of the Arts a wonderful somatic practitioner and Contact Improvisor as well.
Bruce Hildebrand: This was following a bit of a hiatus I’m gathering in your time in your professional career dancing up at Queensland- you had a period up there and Pilates, wasn’t so much a part of your life during that time?
Zac Jones: Don’t think I touched a Reformer in six years. It was just one of those things- for some reason, it just left my experience as some things can just do. I just didn’t think of it, maybe I thought I’d got all I needed from it at that point. Or it was just that moment in time, and I didn’t- in a sense- realise how much I needed it until I started to feel things, not working in my body again. But then also I was looking for something to do, as often dancers do looking for something to do, to be able to extend their dance career or extend what they can do in dance- so Pilates is often a really fantastic option Also know ing, well this is an experience I’ve had working with Andrew I got to quite an advanced level doing it on a technical level . I know a lot of the movements, the techniques going into learn to teach it is something else of course, that’s when you really start knowing how much you think you know isn’t as much.
Bruce Hildebrand: Zac can you reflect on the time when you knew you were starting to get hooked on Pilates, you mentioned the training you did through the APMA with Paul Cini at the Physical Mind Studios, and also with Wendy Smith working at Studio 303 and was there a stage where you’re starting to get hooked and starting to find your participation in Pilates was something you couldn’t ignore.
Zac Jones: It was when I started to work with Wendy Smith at Studio 303 and at Armature Pilates with Steph Glickman- that was a really fantastic place to be learning and to be teaching. What was really interesting is starting working with all these great studios was that I’d just come and learnt from APMA, but there was an acceptance as I went into work with all of these studios that there was allowing me to find my way as a teacher- and because there was such a strong Somatic influence especially from Wendy what really started to excite me was this possibility that, oh, wow, we might be able to actually solve this dilemma that I’d still been struggling with, which was how to bring Somatic work or how to bring conditioning work or how to bring pre-training and how to actually have really specific, tangible effect at the higher skill levels in technique. And even though I’d experienced inklings of that in Pilates before when I was a lot younger, even as I was finding some improvements in technique in ballet, there were other things I just couldn’t get onto and that was always frustrating. What I found with working with Franklin technique Ideokinetics and Skinner Releasing was that the first experience of actual releasing of tension when before everything I’d been doing had been about engagement and about getting the right muscles actually you can find this balance between the release of tension, there’s this experience of flow of lightness and all these things they’re just magical. And then in marrying Franklin and Pilates was showing we can actually have a very specific application and that really inspired me so much. And then the fact of now, not only do we have this wonderful toolkit from working with APMA and working on these rehab applications and all the syllabus, but now we’ve got a very creative outlet. For me that was really interesting and wonderful because I wasn’t doing a huge amount of dance or anything like that at the time and Pilates was able to become my . creative outlet. And I had permission from the studio owners I was working with to actually just try things out- obviously knew I had the safety parameters but just allowing me to explore and clients enjoying it and finding these different ways- that got me hooked completely. And then as I was playing with it myself a lot and finding lots of new things from Franklin, from Ideokinetics from Skinner Releasing from Body Mind Centring and Continuum, Feldenkrais , things like that. And finding, okay, this mix of things but you have to make it work specifically for a client. A lot of somatic exploration what I experienced is that it takes a lot of time- you’ve got to immerse it into your body and then when I was trying to teach it to a client and they’d never experienced anything like that before how do we make sure that it’s targeted and specific for what they want to do. That Somatic approach is able to find whole different ways of them to understand it. That really became my obsession- how can you continually get a breakthrough or an understanding or a change for someone that may not have worked that way before. You know it’s the best way to work, but how are you going to do it? Having the permission to be able to find that was amazing. And that got me hooked!
Bruce Hildebrand: It’s such a beautiful story. I’m thinking of the best time Zac to ask about the integration of your martial arts- tell us where your martial arts and your Aikido blend with your Pilates and bodywork that you’re developing by this stage .
Zac Jones: Because I was doing a lot of different things at once- Pilates, Somatics, martial arts dance- what I started to come up against was that all the training that I’ve been doing since a kid, you start to think if you’re training in one style, that you need a body for that style. There’s the ballet body, maybe there’s the martial arts body, then there’s a yoga body! Everything requires a different body. And it’s like, well, how many bodies you got? So I started to go what are the things that the body is being asked to do? And it became more about how can I integrate these things? What are the qualities here? In martial arts there’s a quality, in dance there’s certain qualities, there’s requirements to be able to fulfill the art form- there’s an aesthetic requirement for dance. Sometimes some martial arts. There’s a skill requirement, there’s a power requirement- there’s certain requirements that you have to fulfill- otherwise you’re not doing that particular art form. You could be doing something else, which is fine, but if you want it that specificity of the delineation of a particular art form each one has different qualities.
So that’s when I started to go well, ok, with martial arts there’s a very dynamic power quality to it, and Aikido with the rolling, the falling, l blocking, there’s projection of power in throws, in Arnis there’s a lot of speed, in Systema there’s fluidity and breathing. These are qualities and they’re all requiring- at a certain point- huge intensity, stamina, endurance, the ability to continue over and over again, coming up against your body’s limits, same thing that I’d experienced with ballet but they’re apparently completely different. It was about going "How can I find that unity within it?" And so with martial arts it was about going if that bit has this huge kinetic power, but then I bring something from Releasing technique or something from Pilates and I can use that element, because it’s almost like i n that art form, all you got is the instructions and insights from within that art form, it’s almost like it’s hermetically sealed so all the masters are in there, and they’ve learned within there. They’re unlikely to have done ballet for many years, or Pilates but what if I bring this little bit here? That’s when I started to tweak it and just started to go, what if I bring it here? What if I bring it here? And then you go " Oh, Wow. Now that actually has allowed me to continue that I can now go harder or longer, I can increase an intensity for that, that I never had before using the instruction because this is where it’s also this idea of the best instructors have the best understanding of WHAT to do and WHAT is required- it’s not to invalidate anything that the instructors are saying it at all- because they have the best understanding of WHAT to do- but the HOW that can be the mystery, HOW to get that attainment. And so for me, it’s been about this journey of going HOW to do and always with the martial arts I remember starting with Systema 12 years ago and being stunned by the power and intensity that I was able to start to generate, but also the exhaustion, you’d be buggered your muscles feeling really torn, there’s a lot of contractual power and so now I’m doing the same thing, but I’m doing it in such a way- with more intensity, but I’m able to do it and I finish it and then there’s nothing I just feel really in flow. It’s really interesting!
Bruce Hildebrand: I think your ability to have blended such an array of different disciplines, different outcomes and different art forms to bring them together and blend them with Pilates, being one of those, but not the ultimate by any means. One thing I’ve always taken the approach with Pilates is its not an outcome methodology- the outcome is a performance. In Pilates, it’s not like there’s an international Pilates competition – an outcome is a sporting pursuit or a martial arts performance or sequence that’s the outcome, but the undercurrent or the underlying complexity of how we use our body is Pilates in many ways and has so many different forms, like you’re talking about.
Zac Jones: Absolutely. Pilates can be such a catch-all for so many different processes to come through. Obviously there is Classical Pilates, but then there’s this other thread within Pilates, which allows it to be adapted in a performance or in a attainment of a particular style of whether it’s martial arts or dance.
Bruce Hildebrand: Pilates it’s something that comes with you the whole time- it’s not a fleeting moment. The richness you’re talking about that you’re bringing to your methodology that you’re developing and you’re continuing to develop it informs every outcome or every performance for your clients.
Zac Jones: Isn’t it interesting in a sense of like Pilates being, so far ahead of it’s time in that idea of lifelong skill for the body, and Joseph Pilates himself having that blend of martial arts, circus, all these kinds of things, such a synthesizer of things, himself continually advancing in skill and having that idea of a process, obviously he was always searching for different improvements- but not to have it as one moment, but something that you’re going to take all through your life- you see that with Pilates.
Bruce Hildebrand: Zac can you share with us some of the issues or the hidden conversations that you were perhaps in contact with in the various studios that you’re attending at the time or in the industry at large, that you didn’t like, or that you didn’t feel aligned with or challenges at the time?
Zac Jones: One of the things I always came up against was the set programming- I just hated that. I felt like I was just dying inside because what’s the principle, what do you want to achieve? The whole point is this is a process of improvement and gaining skill, gaining mobility, gaining of freedom, gaining of enjoyment I felt just didn’t acknowledge the fact that what we’re going to need to do something different next week where even if it’s similar, we’re going to change something because things have changed and you’ve changed. I think it limits the outcomes that are possible A set program offers stability to a client but I thought at the same time it restricted creativity and for me, that was really antithetical to what my experience of Pilates had been
Bruce Hildebrand: What’s your thoughts on how Joseph Pilates might have handled that exact same situation during his time? the conversation around when you come and do Pilates with Joseph Pilates then you do a set routine, this is the program and you stick to it. That’s how you do Pilates do the same routine every time.
Zac Jones: Look, there’s definitely room for that but how I look at it is that it goes back to you can look at Pilates as an attainment- Classical Pilates it’s a beautiful form and to see someone really skilled at it is wonderful to watch and there’s an aesthetic component, and there’s shapes to it. I think when you’re conflating that with the ultimate way to function, that’s a mistake. So when you’re using that as the only way to rehab or to solve a movement blockage or injury solution for that particular thing, I think that doesn’t make sense. Everyone likes to interpret these th I don’t know what Joseph Pilates what I’ve done in that sense, t my feeling is because he was such a continual innovator if you look at a lot of things that he was doing, yes he had set things but where do they come from? They came from him creating solutions and continuing to do that his whole life.. The Pilates equipment is amazing, that’s someone just going what is the best way to serve this outcome? And so he created these incredible pieces of machinery and they’ve stood the test of time and they still get incredible results- and he continually innovated that. It’s hard to know in a sense he was they founder and the master of that style, But you don’t know he might’ve been teaching it in such a way that there could have been real subtleties that it looked a hundred percent the same, but he was doing it in such a way that was actually able to adapt
Bruce Hildebrand: Yeah, it’s another great description. I really love the way that you wrapped that up. Zac it’s often at this stage that you’ve been in the game long enough to be getting a good feel for what Pilates entails and getting a picture of actually being in the Pilates game. Were you beginning to sense a little that the time was coming you’d have to turn a little more inwardly and face up to a range of factors that would shape your future involvement with Pilates- for example, the process of determining if you’re actually going to move forward with Pilates and make it more of what you did or whether you were this far into the journey and realized that it wasn’t actually really going to be for you. I’m assuming that because of where you are now that you decided to move forward, of course, so can you tell me what the turning point was there for you at this this stage?
Zac Jones: As I started to develop more and more some of those concerts I was talking about of somatic applications every time I was doing that I was actually in a Pilates studio- it was kind of like, this is the, this is the place where these things are happening, and every breakthrough that I was being able to experience was happening working with someone, either me working stuff out, then sharing it or having a breakthrough with someone and then working on it myself- so it was really quite a natural progression. What became really exciting was as I was doing, say Continuum or Martial Arts, then looking at the Pilates equipment and what if you start playing with the incredible recoil of the springs- what does that actually mean for your joints to be able to have different speeds – and then I was adding suspension- I don’t think it even occurred to me what I was going to do- it was just continuing- I was just realizing that it’s all here in what I’m needing to discover.
Bruce Hildebrand: What were some of the key factors and influences that determined that you got to this outcome? Was it an experience of triumph or were you at this stage feeling a sense of calm or relief or excitement, or perhaps even overwhelmed of what you still knew that you were destined to achieve in this direction?
Zac Jones: It’s interesting and it continues to this day- there’s just more that it’s the day-to-day thing of working on a solution for someone. That breakthrough is so exciting- you’re completely hooked to the whole time. It never ends that excitement of finding a way through for someone or finding it through for yourself. From a selfish point of view, I keep improving when I’m working out a way to get something across to someone that is struggling to understand what I’m talking about you’ve had to simplify everything and then that simplicity then comes back and then you try that and you go " Whoa! that’s the best!" I think it’s just the day to day thing has just been continuing the whole time- that’s the process for me- since starting it and having that experience and that support to be able to explore somatic practice with specificity Pilates and other things as well, and being able to find solutions- that’s been ongoing. It’s solidified in the sense of enough time has gone and each time that you’re working with someone there’s a confidence that there’s going to be an outcome. There’s always absolute unknown and that’s really exciting as well.
Bruce Hildebrand: And tell us Zac, as this body of work is taking shape, what’s been the path for you since this time? I can see it’s really starting to come together, and you packaged it up for yourself into your own product?
Zac Jones: One of the big things was going back into the dance world and then also doing it online. What I was really curious about when I was working in the Pilates studio was I working with very few dancers but I wanted to know if these results could be found working with dancers. I started to call dance studios and say I think this might have these effects, and they’d say how are you going to do this? How are we gonna make this work? This is about six, seven years ago. I just discovered that you could do that on Facebook messenger, and even Skype I knew it was around I didn’t really know how to use it particularly, but somehow I got it working. The whole process that had been developing from rehab in a Pilates studio, we could then extrapolate online with a dance using a Swiss ball or using a tennis ball and then get the results for dancing. That was really interesting and has been in the process the last few years, extrapolating the whole thing without any of the Pilates equipment, without anything else, other than a screen and internet connection being able to get information across which could then, get someone’s developpe up near their ear, or their arabesque higher their jump higher, taking the principles I’d been developing for more rehab or therapeutic principles. Dancers are already so highly trained, they’re already so aspirational, they’ve already got such a good idea of where they want to go with their bodies and how to get there but they’ve have never experienced how to do it through integration or a release. Finding these principles and working from a rehab perspective and showing how they could get it suddenly it’s wow that those kinds of things happen really quickly- because they already know what to do- they’ve already got the intention- they’re already sending their neuromuscular signals but they’re getting a few blockages. When you’re getting those blockages, the prevailing information is often you need to work harder, you got to push through it, but you’ve already come so far to get there- you’ve already come further than most people would even know, imagine. And now the next step is to force it! Then working in this way. They’re going " Oh, I don’t have to force it whoa, there you go". So that was really exciting and that happened ever since. Now it’s been online courses and coaching primarily for dancers, I still doing from a rehab perspective, but still, mainly online, that’s been interesting, I can have a tendency to ramble but online requires such brevity- to use one word, two words, you’ve got to get everything in a couple of words. So that’s been the process, since then of packaging up for dancers and others, making the information really clear and targeted so that it can be understood quickly online.
Bruce Hildebrand: Yeah. It’s a real test of putting that to the students and to your clients in a way that you obviously get the feedback really quickly and then see how it lands for them. They tell you pretty quickly if it’s not working.
Zac Jones: That’s it. it’s one of the ways I had to develop was that instant feedback loop, because you can’t afford to have two minutes go by and someone not get it, especially if you’ve got a whole mass of students over zoom. Everyone has to feel. We got to get that first, then there’s things that you’re looking for, which you have to make sure that you tell me if you’re not getting if it’s sore, if there’s too much pressure, if there’s pain any of that, you’ve got to stop immediately. You put your hand up, you come into chat, then I can know really quickly if a student’s not understanding it or if they’re not getting it. And so that’s even students as young and seven. Also the other thing of just letting people, give their feedback, to tell you exactly what they’re feeling- people that might not normally say that in person- students in a big dance class, you got the confident ones- there’s always one spokesperson. But online they might pour their heart out into this incredible description of what’s happened- and they might not be the best student in the class, but they’ve found a way through- really interesting.
Bruce Hildebrand: And that’s speaks to the somatic approach to teaching anything really, getting that feedback loop and having that two way discussion.
Zac Jones: Exactly
Bruce Hildebrand: And for you, Zac what are some of the changes both in your body and your mind, and even in your spirit as Joseph Pilates liked to put it that are now second nature to you in the way that you both do Pilates and even teach it that you’ve managed to carry over into your day-to-day life that you couldn’t imagine that would have even been possible before you started Pilates or started this whole movement approach, including wrestling with the things that we mentioned earlier that you’ve been able to have some breakthroughs with for yourself.
Zac Jones: One of the big things has been that application of being able to know that a change is possible instantaneously! That’s been a big thing for me coming from such a lineage of hard work, where you work for change, you work hard to make anything happen, and it requires that blood, sweat, and tears, no pain, no gain, even if it’s not explicitly stated, it’s implicitly there. To realize that it’s possible to have change very quickly- that can be huge. And to know that as a movement practice, then to have that inform you can be in stressful situations in your life and obviously, it doesn’t get more intense than a global pandemic for people at the moment- you know, it’s, so intense, but knowing that link- it’s just having something practical and simple that you can go "Okay, I’m stressed! Where is it? Oh, it’s in my body. I can release. I can find flow in that moment. It’s not there just for that moment- and that is enough to sustain you or to get you through a moment whatever’s happening, the stresses and pressures of life continue, but you can have just a little bit of a gap where you can find a little way through. That’s been a big change for me I wouldn’t have imagined before. I remember but you know, stress or tension for so many reasons when you’re dancing and it builds and builds and builds. Knowing now that- yes, you can relieve it! I can just do this and at this moment I can get through it, and that’s been a really interesting that unification, the practice and experience.
Bruce Hildebrand: And it’s been really special to share that with your students through your business.
Zac Jones: Yeah. I don’t really specifically talk too much about this because I prefer people coming in without wanting practical solutions- they might say they’re stressed or whatever, but it’s much more by going "we want to find out what is the thing that you want to do"- by giving this process to them and they’re working that way through themselves- it’s very much like I’m giving tools rather than programs per se, it’s showing someone how to refine them and refine them for themselves. Everyone’s going to be able to different house or everyone’s going to create something different. If someone’s coming in and they’ve got really tight hamstrings, by working out that process of learning how to release and integrate it, then they’re sleeping better at night and it’s because it becomes a unified thing through the whole body. Everyone’s got something they want to work towards.
Bruce Hildebrand: Zac, tell me more about where you now sit with your Pilates- what does the future hold for you now with Pilates in your life and what plans have you in store for your Pilates involvement, and share with us what you wish you knew at the start of the journey that would make the biggest difference to someone else who’s considering starting Pilates or facing some of the struggles that you did in your Pilates progress.
Zac Jones: There’s a whole thing that I’ve worked on that I haven’t gone back to which was using all the equipment a bit differently. A lot of the suspension I’ve been working on with dancers, I’ve developed how to get three-dimensional practice using that Pilates equipment. That’s something I’d really love to bring out at some stage. I was doing a lot with suspension so that’s something I’m really interested in bringing those two together.
The other thing is what I wish that I’d known starting out which would have helped me was the confidence to keep trusting that intuition. This can be specifically for dancers or athletes- there’s so much innate complexity and skill that you’ve developed that it’s already there- just knowing earlier on how to make these links. To trust the first thing that comes to mind- you might doubt it initially but it’s not stupid, it’s not dumb- I often find that that’s the thing you’ve got to do. Part of the whole journey has been developing and discovering that and working that out for myself- but if I’d known that earlier, I would be further along now. Alot of the time, if I haven’t done that, then I have to circle back to it. So more and more now it’s you’ve got a feeling you’ve got to do this and it’s different to something you’ve done before, and it doesn’t necessarily make any sense in the context.
Bruce Hildebrand: Zac we haven’t touched on your musical talents tell us a little about how your musical percussion influence has been part of your Pilates development.
Zac Jones: One of the really interesting things that I’ve found with singing and Pilates or singing and movement is the idea of external pressure and internal pressure pressurization. Now, if you’re singing you’re always dealing with internal pressure. One of the things was being able to actually relax and release the internal pressure and recognizing it when you’re coming up against an external resistance. So the vibration going through when you’re singing- and having them meet together. Also the idea of the extension of breath trying to bring in a normal breathing pattern and then vocalizing that rather than try and extend it and by the time singers get to their vocalization outward, they’re already going way beyond their normal breath capacity- then there’s all these things that aren’t actually happening normally physiologically. And so if you’re going to extend the breath, you’ve got to extend your ability to deal with the extra pressurization or release of pressure in the out-breath. So that has been something I’ve been working on through combining singing and movement.
Bruce Hildebrand: Zac, it’s been so great chatting with you today. Thanks so much for your time on the call. What’s the best way for listeners to get in touch with you?
Zac Jones: So you can just go to www.healyourselfandmove.com.au. You can book a zoom call, if you want to have a chat- I do a 15 minute training session. If there’s anything that you’d like some extra help with I’m happy to do that. Generally we try and find in that time a really direct thing that you can do using that zoom format or join my Facebook group Heal Yourself and Move Facebook group there we do training every Friday. And they’re on different subjects- a lot of it’s dance related, but it’s also lots of different things.
Bruce Hildebrand: So we’ll drop those links in the show notes for Heal Yourself and Move. Thank you so much Zac for your time on the call today- it’s always a pleasure catching up with you.
Zac Jones: It’s been so great Bruce. Thanks so much for having me
Bruce Hildebrand: We hope you enjoyed this episode of The Pilates Diaries Podcast. Drop us a comment online at the links in the show notes, and be sure to subscribe and rate the podcast to keep updated with episode releases and hear more stories from our guests’ Pilates Diaries. This podcast is made possible by the following sponsors- keep an ear out for exclusive Pilates Diaries Podcast listener discount codes. Thanks for listening. The Pilates Diaries Podcast is a proud partner with TRIMIO. Set to launch at the end of 2021 TRIMIO is a much needed space and time utilization booking system for the Pilates industry. With TRIMIO you can return your focus to delivering the highest value to your customers. No longer be lost to the encumbrances of inefficient interactions and experience a new level of working freedom with the power of technology automation doing what it should. Maximize your profitability by optimizing the utilization of your time and physical space with TRIMIO. Find out more and register for pre-release updates at www.TRIMIO.app.
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